Giovanni you don't understand our and your religion

[abbas2000]

The day of judgement is very important for all of us but now and today is very important. We have to respect our religion and your religion and all people.

[Giovanni]

Hello brother....you said in the privious post that you must respect all religions...

Can you please give me your interpretation of the Following surah

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

Why certain JEWS and Christians?why not people in general.....Why pin it on us Christians or the Jews

How about this one:

(Koran 3:85)
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam,
never will it be accepted of him; and in the
Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have
lost all spiritual good.

Therefore anything other than ISLAM is no good?WHY?

I WORSHIP GOD AND GOD ALONe. NO statues,crosses,priests. GOD and thats all.

Answer me the following:How can you worship GOD when you cant understand what you say or read?Most muslims are not arabic...but must learn to read the Quran in arabic.In my opinion thats called being a parot...saying words you cant understand.repeating things over and over.

CHristians do not have 3 gods. They never did and never will.It is one GOD who manifests himself to humanity as 3

God the Father(the creator)
God the Son(Jesus Christ as GOD in flesh and blood to save humanity from sin)(he is both man & GOD)
God the Holy spirit( when you are baptized you recieve GOD by means of the holy spirit.)

ITS 1 GOD who manifests his will to humanity as 3. NOT 3 distict gods. The Quran does not describe the TRINITY corectly.

By the way....Catholics,Protestants, and orthodox Greeks all accept CHRIST as GOD in flesh and blood and also as a man.
To be Christian you must accept the Following
1)GOD
2)God the son(Jesus Christ as the SON OF GOD)
3)Christ as the messiah who is the son of GOD
4)Christ being killed on a cross and resurrecting.
5)The holy spirit

Catholics,Protestants and orthodox Greek all accept the above + Christ as being GOD,and the HOLY SPIRIT as being GOD.(Which by the way is writen in the Bible)

Lets keep writing to eachother...you can teach me where im wrong in ISLAM ..and i can teach you where your wrong in CHRISTIANITY.

BY the way to be catholic means to follow CHRISTIANITY in the ways of the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Many non-christians think CATHOLIC and CHRISTIAN is the same thing. Its not. To be catholic is like being SUNNI .To be Christian is to accept what i mentioned above. as long as you accept the 5 things above you are Christian.Just because your not SUNNI Doesnt mean your not muslim. BUT that doesnt make you catholic...

besides ive rejected my catholic faith and searching for thr RIGHT religion. The catholic church DIVIATES too much from the BIBLE. In my opinion the PEntacostal church is the RIGHT ONE. The use the BIBLE and ONLY the Bible as guidance. There are no statues, or crosses, or saints or priests. Simply someone elected by the congregation and people worshipping GOD.

I AM CHRISTIAN but not catholic.

You seem rather open minded

Hope to hear from you soon

SAALAM & WA SA ALLAH

[hadids]

Hello Giovanni,

I just want to clear a few points you raised in your previous post:

1 # Distinguish between "respect" and "to take as allies" nowhere near the same meaning. Don't you think so?

2 # When you read the Qur'an you should take it as a whole: do not quote one Ayat and forget about the rest. Indeed, we should not take Jews and Christians as Allies (why stress on Jews and Christians: maybe because a lot of muslims did and still do)but neither should we take polytheists, atheits, hypocrites etc as allies, to quote one of many Ayat of the holy Qur'an:

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

3:[28] Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than Believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (to remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.

3 # Your definition of ISLAM? obviously there's some sort of misunderstanding.

Islam = Submit with Taqwa to the one and only true GOD.

I guess you came across this word "Taqwa" before. it is one of the non-translatable words of arabic which approximately means the combination of: Love, Fear, Highest of Respect.(this should answer your question why non-arabs are highly advised to learn Arabic, just imagine how translating the Qur'an could change meanings)

Now let's see how will this fit in your remark:

(Koran 3:85)
If anyone desires a religion other than "Submiting with Taqwa to the one and only true GOD",
never will it be accepted of him; and in the
Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have
lost all spiritual good.

Therefore anything other than "Submiting with Taqwa to the one and only true GOD" is no good? WHY? ---> can you see now how strange the "Why?" is? in other words would you personally choose anything else than to "Submit with Taqwa to the one and only true GOD"? you would be a fool not to.

and your following remark prooves so:

I WORSHIP GOD AND GOD ALONe. NO statues,crosses,priests. GOD and thats all.

That's good, very good, you can proudly say now that I AM A MUSLIM.........BUT........with a capital B, there is one problem, very important one, your definition or concept of GOD.(the following point)

4 # You say:

CHristians do not have 3 gods. They never did and never will.It is one GOD who manifests himself to humanity as 3 ---> continue the sentence. 3 what? 3 men, no. 3 gods, no. 3 what? they must be 3 different things.

you explain:

God the Father(the creator) ((I add according to your belief----->which is GOD))
God the Son(Jesus Christ as GOD in flesh and blood to save humanity from sin)(he is both man & GOD)((I add according to your belief----->which is GOD))
God the Holy spirit( when you are baptized you recieve GOD by means of the holy spirit.) ((I add according to your belief----->which is GOD))

now, you tell me what I have added is wrong: that:

the Father is God
the Son is God
the holy spirit is God

now to avoid the argument that you are talking about 3 gods here, let me make some guesswork: I guess you mean that God changes his form into 3 different forms at the same time yet each form is God, and the 3 forms all together is God. Impossible to grasp and very unlikely, but you see, even this theory does not work.

- GOD does not need to change His form.
- changing from Creator to Creation? (as you said Jesus is Man & God)
- We talk a lot about The Father and The Son, yet not much about the Holy Spirit, why this type of form?, Baptizing only? What's the use of Angels then?
- According to your belief, Jesus is by the side of The Father. but how come? we just said that they both come from one form. It is more logical that the 3 forms would have gone back together to reappear mybe later on.
- According to your Bibles, Jesus never said "I am God, worship me" au contraire, he stressed a lot on worshipping the Father which is in Heaven. Do you think that's normal since you believe Jesus is God?
- Why break the flow of Prophets since Adam (Alaihi Assalam)? and remember Jesus did make a prophesy of another Prophet to come after him.......................................................................and the list goes on and on.

Another thing, you said The Quran does not describe the TRINITY corectly, wrong, I say neither does any christian who beleives in Trinity has one description of it or the same description as you may call it correct.(the word that does not exist in the bible or at least not spoken by Jesus).

5 # I just like to add here, Do you really follow Jesus (as)? (at least you could call him with his real name if you know it)

- circomsision
- Peace be upon you
- head on ground when you in prostration
- fulfilling the previous laws and commandmants of God

And all with heart and action, one is nill without the other.

Just a thought: "how is it you've become to be called Christions?" think about it.

[Giovanni]

SAALAM

For non-christians the concept of trinity is rather dificult to grasp

think of it as the following...GOD manifesting himself 3 ways to humanity
1)as the creator(GOD THE FATHER)
2)as JESUS CHRIST the messiah and son of GOD and GOD(GOD THE SON)
3)as the holy spirit who baptises you(GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT)

ITS THE ONE TRUE GOd....but he manifests himself to humanity in 3 ways...thats all.

I submit myself to the same GOD as you do....but i view him differently.

I WORSHIP GOD AND GOD ALONe WHO MAIFESTS HIMSELF TO HUMANITY AS 3.

I AM A SUBMITER TO GOD AND GOD ALONE

REGARDING CIRCUMSISION...READ THE FOLLOWING BIBLE PASSAGE.
IT IS NOT OBLIGATORY byt rather a CHOISE.YOU NEED CIRCUMSICION OF THE HEART....the flesh is OPTIONAL.If you have no circumsicion of the HEART, CIRCUMSICION OF THE
PHYSICAL CIRCUMSICION IS NOT OBLIGARORY.
FLESH IS USELESS:

Romans 2:25
For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

Romans 2:26
So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

Romans 2:27
And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

HERE ARE MORE VERSES TO CLARIFY CIRCUMSICION.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 Corinthians 7:20
Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.
(the above verse mean physical circumsicion...PHYSICAL M<EANS NOTHING..INTERNAL MEANS EVERYTHING)

One other point..JESUS CHRIST is the begining of the NEW COVANENT.I belong to it.CIRCUMCISION of the FLESH is obligatory to the OLD COVANENT ONLY(the covanent with isaac)

I have kept the previous comandements and laws of the TORAH...

Christ was asked what the greatest comandement was....here is what his response was:

Matthew 22:36
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"

Matthew 22:37
And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

Matthew 22:38
"This is the great and foremost commandment.

Matthew 22:39
"The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

Matthew 22:40
"On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

I LOVE GOD and i LOVE MY FELLOW BROTHEr...I DO NOT HATe nor doi take revenge BECAUSE THE TORAH SAYS(OLD TESTAMENt)

Leviticus 19:18
'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor
as yourself; I am the LORD

&
REVENGE IS FOR GOD ONLY

Deuteronomy 32:35
'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution,
In due time their foot will slip;
For the day of their calamity is near,
And the impending things are hastening upon them.'

ABOUT PRAYING AS JESUS DID...THIS IS WHAT HE SAId..
THIS IS HOW ONE SHOULD PRAY:

Matthew 6:5
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

Matthew 6:6
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Matthew 6:7
"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

Matthew 6:8
"So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Matthew 6:9
"Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.


Matthew 6:10
'Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.


Matthew 6:11
'Give us this day our daily bread.


Matthew 6:12
'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.


Matthew 6:13
'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'


Matthew 6:14
"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

Matthew 6:15
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

NOTE:PRAYING WITH THE HEAD ON THE GROUND IS ISLAMIc..not CHRISTIAn. As a christian I MAy pray as I wish in any direction i wish and AT ANY TIME I WISH.,....AS LONG I I CONFORM WITH THE ABOVE VERSES.

I have come to become Christian because

1)I woeship GOD and GOD ALONe
2)I believe in JESUS Christ
3) i accept Christ as being the MESSIAh
40I accept him as being BOTH GOD ANND MAN(SON OF GOD)
5) I ACCEPT THE FACT THAT HE WAS CRUCIFIED AND DIED FOR MY SINS
6)I accpt the fact that on the 3ird day he rose from the dead
7)I accept thast he will return on earth to rule for 1000years.
8)I accpt that HE WILL JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD

I FOLLOW GOD AND GOD ALONe because the SCRPTURES SAYS:

Isaiah 29:13
Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words
And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me,
And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,

Isaiah 29:14
Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."

"reverence for me by way of rote" MEANS ORAL TRADITIONS or something which is USED OR APPLIED IO OUR LIVES WHICH IS NOT FROM THE HOLY SCRIPTURE

YOU MUST ONLY USE THE WORD OF GOD AS GUIDANCE NOT MAN MADE LAWS OR ORAL TRADITIONS

EXAMPLES OF MAN MADE LAWS AND ORAL TRADITIONS ARE:
1.SUNNAH(oral tradition)
2.HADITH(oral tradition)
3.TALMUD(jewish oral traditions)
4.HALACHA(way to walk in Judaisn also man made)

#'s 1,2,3,4 are OF NO USE!!!!THEY ARE NOT THE LAWS OF GOD..but rather MANS INTERPRETATIONS OF GODS LAWs...and FOLKLOAR TRADTIONS.

I USE the OLD TESTAMENT & NEW TESTAMENT. NOTHING ELSE!

GOD AND ONLY GOD MUST BE WORSHIPPED.

May GOD bless YOU AND MAY HE GUIDE YOU IN HIS WAYS TO WORSHIP HIM ALONE

SAALAM

PS:i hope this clarifies what i believe,
i look forward to your response brother.

MAY THE PEACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST BE WITH YOU.

[hadids]

Hello Giovanni, thanks for your reply.

But unfortunately you have not addressed all my points in my previous post (#s 1,2,3) you've only repeated what I already know on point 4 but you did not answer the questions, and on point 5 you kept on stressing on circumsision which should be in the spirit and the flesh *both* (it is unreasonable just in spirit since all prophets from Abraham where circumsised in the flesh including Jesus (as)). never mind. I am used to this type of answers from christians. And I tell you, not only, as you've put it, "non-christians" find it rather difficult to grasp the theory of trinity but neither does most christians (not to say all of them). You think you understand it because you want to believe in it: just the same as those who believe in the evolution theory to the point it became a fact!!!!!!

Anyway, moving on, I wonder what you mean by:

PRAYING WITH THE HEAD ON THE GROUND IS ISLAMIc..not CHRISTIAn.

There's no doubt it is islamic for:

"O you who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves and serve your Lord, and do good that you may prosper."-(HOLY QURAN 22:77).

but funny enough in your bibles:

"And he (Jesus) went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..."-(MATTHEW 26:39).

"And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship..."-(JOSHUA 5:14).

"And he (Elijah) cast himself down upon the earth, and put his face between his knees."-(1 KINGS 18:42).

"And they (Moses and Aaron) fell upon their faces..."-(NUMBERS 20:6).

"And Abraham fell on his face..."-(GENESIS 17:3).

Do you love Jesus and the prophets enough to do as they did?

And that's why we Muslims like very much to follow the example or the way (which means Sunnah) of the Prophet (asws) as well as all the Prophets as long as they conform with the last testament and the unchanged word of God: the Qur'an.

You see in Islam, there are three steps in following the laws of God:
1 # First and above all, we refer to the Qur'an. What Allah commands us is called "Fardh", which means disobeing it is to commit sin (or Haram). But, of course you don't expect that everything in this universe is to be mentioned in it. So:
2 # Secondly, we refer to the sunnah of the prophet (asws) and this includes the "Ahadeeth" the sayings of the prophet (asws). why: because God commanded us to follow the Prophet and all the phrophets (asws) and to obey them. Indeed, they are man made, no one claims they are not, but not from any man. Indeed, some are corrupted, for Allah Promised to preserve the Qur'an not the Sunnah. So how do we know?---> Compare with the Qur'an. If still in doubt then proceed to the third step.
3 # Use your brain, or "Ijtihad" and usually this is not done alone but with scholars or highly knowledgeable muslims. but if not found, your own reasoning should be enough because that's what Islam is all about: spirit and body to function as God intended it to. That's why we all have a substantial amount of "free will".

Finally Giovanni, there's no use you quoting me from your bibles as we muslims know it is corrupted, and there's no use me quoting you from the Holy Qur'an as you do not believe in it. Solution: to use your brain or logic, sense of reasoning if you prefer. But you know well that is does not work with chritianity do you?

Just a thought:
- You christians "believe" that there is no God but God.
- We Muslims "testify" that there is no God but God.

[Giovanni]

I have quoted from the BIBLE to show you how"Christ" wants us to pray.THIS IS HOW "HE" WANTS US TO PRAY.This is how I pray.THIS IS THE CHRISTIAN WAY.

To "prostrate" yourself on the ground is a "choice" not an "obligation" thats why the prophets have done it.

I have prostrated myself "face down" when i pray and I still do when i pray.especially when i THANK GOD for something.....but it is a CHOICE I MAKE...not an OBLIGATIOn.God will not punish me for NOT PUTTING MY FACE ON THE GROUND as long as my prayer come from the heart.

Im happy you admited that sunnah and hadith are not"perfect" some muslims dont agree.

Thirdly...I DO TESTIFY THAT THERE IS ONE GOD..AND I WORSHIP HIM ALONE. Thats the reason I LEFT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.And i am seeking what i believe is the "RIGHT " religion.When i find a religion that is purely based on the Bible...this is the one I WILL conver to.

I almost became muslim 1 month ago....but i realized it wasnt for me AT ALL.

I HAD REJECT THE SUNNAH AND HADITH COMPLETLY...
I refused to use any other source other than the QURAn...but my"once wife to be" thought it wasnt good enough.

She refused to kill spiders
she would not play wind instuments
I couldnt wear Gold or anything made of silk
I had to do WUDU before touching the Quran.

All the above is not writen in the Quran.ESPECIALLY WUDU for the QURAN.WUDU is ONLY and ONLY for SALAT.NOTHING ELSE.

ILL EVEN QUOTE FROM THE QURAN IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME.TO TOUCH THE QURAN YOU MUST BE "CLEAN" PHYSICALY....AND SEEK REFUGE IN GOD FROM SATAN THE REJECTED.NOT DO WUDU...OR WRAP THE QURAN WITH A CLOTH TO PREVENT DUST FROM TOUCHING IT..OR PUT THE QURAN ON THE HIGHEST SHELF.THAT IS IDOLATRY...YOU IDALIZE THE QURAN.IDOLIZE GOD>>>NOTHING ELSE!

Anyways....I no longer accept the Quran as the WORD OF GOd...But i have learned some interesting things in my 8 month relationshop with a muslim.It actually helped me become closer to GOD than ever. It also has made me A VERY BELIEVING AND PRACTICING CHRISTIAN.I am more convinced now than ever that the BIBLE is the word of GOD.

I AM MORE PRACTICING NOW THAN EVER BEFORE...BUT AS A CHRISTIAN.

I agree it is not the "original torah"...or the "original"INJEEL".

By translating texts over and over...things can become distorted.God spoke through Prophet JEREMIAH to show him the mistakes and distortions that were made in the TORAH.THE MISTAKES ARE THERE....BUT THE CORECTIONS ARE THERE AS WELL.THIS SHOWS US THAT GOD CARES ENOUGH TO CORRECT THE "UNHOLY" LIES THE SCRIBES INVENTED.

THE WORD OF GOD IN THE BIBLE IS PERFECT...BUT THE BIBLE ITSELF IS NOT.IT IS A BOOK!IT IS NOT TO BE IDOLIZED BY BEING PUT ON A HIGH SHELF OR BEING WRAPPED IN CLOTHS.

ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

THE FOLLOWING ARE PERFECT:a)GOD(which includes jesus,holy spirit,and GOD the father) b)heaven and that which is in heaven c)the word of GOD and adam and EVE bebore they sined can be considered sinless

ANYTHING ELSE WHICH IS SAID TO BE PERFECT IN MY OPINION IS A SIN.

A true believer researches the WORD of GOd and after CAREFUL study...he abides by it BLINDLY.

He can reconize the TRUE word and the words of MAN and THAT WHICH IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD!

I HAVE TESTIFIED THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD...
I CONTIUE TO TESTIFIY
AND I WONT STOP TESTIFYING

THATS WHY I ABIDE BY HIS WORDS ONLY...NOT THE WORDS OF MAN.
NO SUNNAH,NO HADITH,NO TALMUD,NOT HALACHA.

ONLY THE WORD OF GOD IN THE BIBLE.

I hope this clarifies what i believe.

I no longer accept the QURAN in the SAME WAY you reject the BIBLE as being the word of GOD.

Therefore i will not quote from the BIBLE if you dont quote from the QURAN.

MAY PEACE OF THE LORD BE WITH YOU

PS:i enjoy writing to you....you seem to be more open minded that most muslims I have met.

[QUETZALBOAT]

To : Hadid and Giovanni
Assalamu'alaikum, Shalom aleichem, Peace be upon you.

Brother Hadid wrote
Just a thought:
- You christians "believe" that there is no God but God.
- We Muslims "testify" that there is no God but God.

I think Christian not only "believe" but also "testify"
Christian has a "Creed" same as a "Shahadah" in Islam.
The Creed in Latin (first paragraf) :
Credo in "unum" Deum, Patrem Omnipotentem,
factorem caeli et terrae

which is translated in English as :
I "believe" in one God, Father Almighty
creator of the heaven and earth.
Note :
The word "credo" must be translated as : testify
(for credamus means : let us testify, not let us believe!)
You see that wrong translation makes wrong interpretation!

The difference between Islam and Christianity are :
Islam thought about God physically
Christian thought about God psychically
Like the term of "trinity", is not the same as counting one two three at all!
The Father : The Power of God
The Son : The Word of God
The Holy Spirit : The Spirit of God

I like to read books, I read other beliefs scriptures too
Sometimes I wonder why, every belief or religion testify:
GOD IS ALMIGHTY, NOTHING IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM!
(When Thy say "done" and "it's done" or "kun fayakun")
But RELIGIONS MADE MANY LIMITATIONS TO GOD indeed!
God could never beget nor begotten
How if Thy want to? It is possible for God is Almighty
God stay in heaven
I think Thy could be anywhere! For God is Almighty
God has "three persona" (Christian) and has 99 names (Islam)
For God is Almighty, there's a possibility for Thee to have thousand persona or million names.

Mankind has many limitations, also their thought about God
God is our creator, how could a creation knows all about his Creator? God knowest us 100% but we only know maybe a permil about Him, He is beyond the human thought.

I hope, the discussions between Christian and Islam in the future seek the "similarity" not the "diversity"
Then there will be friendship and brotherhood for peace!
I wish brother Hadid and Giovanni agree with me.

wa bilahil taufiq wal hidayah
wassalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh
**quetzalboat**