Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Suicide bombings

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    All of these quotations are not for me anyway because I have seen the leaders of Hamas with my own eyes express their opinions on suicide bombings and that is proof enough for me that they are and represent a backward group. Doesnt mean it isnt getting better and wont become better and peaceful.

    Comment


    • #92
      El Henni

      Be very, very careful what you are saying now. I have had to ask you before to refrain from making your leaps of thought and landing at a wrong conclusion.

      Don't you dare try to smear me.

      Because you seem incapable of reading clearly I will spell this out for you.

      I challenged your smearing and judging and demonizing.

      I pointed out that your facts were wrong.

      I pointed out that Hamas was not solely responsible for suicide bombings.

      I pointed out that Hamas fatwas do not account for all the suicide bombings.

      I pointed out that suicide bombers typically volunteer or are approached by family and friends, not by the Hamas leadership.

      I could also point out that research study after research study refutes completely your view that suicide bombers are mentally ill.

      I have tried to ask you to be accurate, that is all and encouraged you to read a little more about the issue so that you would have no need to blur what should have been straightforward with partial and confused analysis.

      If your latest response is some snide inference that I am expressing uncritical support for Hamas you should log out now and do some clear headed thinking before you make another comment.

      You have falsely accused people on this site of being supporters of murder before. Don't you dare try doing that with me.

      Comment


      • #93
        Taking the dispute aside for a second...

        On the substantive point, are you not both arguing much the same thing (ie that you don't support suicide bombing)?



        V

        Comment


        • #94
          I said that a long time ago, ya voltaire. But El Henni seems determined to slip in a generalized attack on Hamas, more than any other grouping, and is now citing fatwas from persons not even associated with Hamas. It is obvious that, given the actual number of such attacks launched by Hamas in the last 12 years, that there is a lot more to the organisation's activities than suicide bombings. While claiming not to be touching on any issue other than suicide bombing El Henni seems incapable of refraining from singling out Hamas for political criticism and evades addressing the obvious flaws in his own argument.

          And I do not accept that calling for accuracy merits an allegation, however veiled, of uncritical support.

          Comment


          • #95
            Well, there's nothing wrong in and of itself with criticising Hamas, and if they were the topic then it seems to me that not every point should necessarily have to be "balanced" (so to speak) with criticisms of every other organisation in the region as well - after all that's not a standard that we would apply to criticisms of political organisations anywhere else.

            However of course that's a rather different point from saying that specific people on this site support suicide bombing, when in fact they don't.



            V

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by voltaire
              Well, there's nothing wrong in and of itself with criticising Hamas, and if they were the topic then it seems to me that not every point should necessarily have to be "balanced" (so to speak) with criticisms of every other organisation in the region as well - after all that's not a standard that we would apply to criticisms of political organisations anywhere else.

              However of course that's a rather different point from saying that specific people on this site support suicide bombing, when in fact they don't.
              V
              But Hamas was not the topic, voltaire. Suicide bombing was. And so if criticism is to be levelled it must be levelled everywhere. It is to build a completely false argument to suggest that Hamas and Hamas fatwas are the principle problem when that is clearly not true. So trying to push forward a Procrustean analysis that fails completely to address other groups, and that additionally completely fails to explain Christian or secular suicide bombers in the wider context of suicide bombings in general, is partial at best, deliberately inaccurate at worst. If suicide bombings are to be understood - and criticized - then singling out one party in particular and treating the other groups that have used the same attacks as somehow less relevant seems a very odd way of going about it.

              Comment


              • #97
                Be very, very careful what you are saying now. I have had to ask you before to refrain from making your leaps of thought and landing at a wrong conclusion.

                Don't you dare try to smear me.
                (Prove this statement, or is this yet another false accusation, you are the one who has attemted to smear me at every turn)

                Because you seem incapable of reading clearly I will spell this out for you.
                (Keep the flow of insults coming, they will only dampen your argument)

                BELOW ARE YOU COMMENTS,

                I challenged your smearing and judging and demonizing.
                (I niether smeared nor judged but I did demonize a group which encourages and facilitates suicide bombing, booo hooo!)

                I pointed out that your facts were wrong.
                (I conceded on the one fact you proved wrong but you must also accept that the figure you gave for the number of suicide bombings was also wrong as proved in the posts I made, you understated the number of atacks)

                I pointed out that Hamas was not solely responsible for suicide bombings.
                ( Perhaps you imaged that I said Hamas was the only group responsible for suicide bombings, I did not say that, find one quote, I only used Hamas as my example because they are the leading party of Palestine, the democratically ellected Government- I therefore have all rights to quote them over other groups)

                I pointed out that Hamas fatwas do not account for all the suicide bombings.
                (I did not say otherwise, the above comments should prove that and all of my previous posts substantiate that. I did however state that theologically Hamas Fatwas are a Universal fatwa open to all Shafa'is and Hanbalis and therefore can be used as a justoification by the majority Palestinian Muslims who fall into that category)

                I pointed out that suicide bombers typically volunteer or are approached by family and friends, not by the Hamas leadership.

                (I did not say they didnt, I in fact said that when Hamas reaches them they are at a position mentally wher e they are ready to inflict serious harm upon Israel and Hamas's job is then very easy, I also provided evidence of statements from suicide bombers and members of Hamas that discuss their recruitment process and how they manipulate people by using whooley Islamic language - Saheed - Janna- Gardens of Paradise - Virginds etc...)

                I could also point out that research study after research study refutes completely your view that suicide bombers are mentally ill.
                (I did not say that Palestinian suicide bombers are mental, I said that a prercentage of them are not fully in control of their mental capabilities and they are insane because of the TERRORISM INFLICTED UPON THEM BY Israel and furthermore that their knowledge of Halaal and Haraam is clouded and they are not guilty of kufr in the same way as someone who's intent was fully aware of the kufr th ey were about to act upon)

                I have tried to ask you to be accurate, that is all and encouraged you to read a little more about the issue so that you would have no need to blur what should have been straightforward with partial and confused analysis.

                (One can only argue with you if you would read my comments properly and not misquote them out of context and is you would also not project upon me things which I HAVE NOT SAID. Otherwise it's a useless discussion because my points to you are not taken in good faith but quite the opposite)

                If your latest response is some snide inference that I am expressing uncritical support for Hamas you should log out now and do some clear headed thinking before you make another comment.

                (The comment you refer to was a self reflection as clearly stated, that I will not give the Hamas the white flag for that which is Haraam, if you feel that tha's what you do then that is something for your own conscience. If I believed you thought that I would say so excplicitly and not behind inference, do not accuse me of inference again)

                You have falsely accused people on this site of being supporters of murder before. Don't you dare try doing that with me.
                (Now who is making the sweeping statement, I have not accused anyone of any such thing to my memory, bring your evidence or retract the statement and YOU DO NOT DARE TO THREATEN ME, you have niether intimidated me nor upset me, the only intimidation you could inflict upon me is if you take my comments in good faith and argue with me in good faith and in such a way that only addresses what I say and the ACTUAL points I convey. What a silly way to come at me, it didnt work )


                Do not address me in such a cryde and heartless way. You took my words out of context as has been shown beyond doubt different occassions, you attributed one thing to me eventhough I had clearly re-stated that I did not say that and proved that throu gh the actual full statements I made.

                You are therefore the one who needs to be spoon fed so as to understand exactly what is said to you. I have on at least 6 different occassions appologised to you and to all here if I have made a mistake, you are yet to prove that I made a mistake, the onlything you proved and I conceed to, was my statement of 1000's of suicide bombers.

                Be very, very careful what you are saying now. I have had to ask you before to refrain from making your leaps of thought and landing at a wrong conclusion.
                (You are yet to prove that my actual statements have done this, if my statements are twisted, cut abd pasted in small quantaties out of context then fine, I agree, but if you look at exactly what I said in its full context there is no way you could draw such rash conclusions.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by voltaire
                  Well, there's nothing wrong in and of itself with criticising Hamas, and if they were the topic then it seems to me that not every point should necessarily have to be "balanced" (so to speak) with criticisms of every other organisation in the region as well - after all that's not a standard that we would apply to criticisms of political organisations anywhere else.

                  However of course that's a rather different point from saying that specific people on this site support suicide bombing, when in fact they don't.

                  V
                  I use Hamas as an example because they are the ruling party of Palestine, they are the democratically elected Government, al-Khiyal changed his stance because at first he inferred I was smearing all Palestinian people, something I proved beyond any doubt I didnt do - Now he has switched to saying I am somehow only picking on Hamas (poor little group they really are). Read my posts I clearly stated on two or three ocassions that Hamas has done and is doing great humanitarian work. However this thread was started in the Religion section and looked at the theological justification, in Islam the fact that they as an organisation permit, encourage and facilitate suicide bombings, keeping in mind that in Islam to kill one person is to kill an entire nation, all means that they have negated their humanitarian work through this act of kufr, they are a FITNA

                  Lastly and we shall be clear about this, I appologise if your last comment is not towards me but I have not and continue not to infer for a secomd that any member here supports suicide bombings, not once.

                  My point is simple, Hamas are an organisation both good and bad but in Islam suicide bombings are such a grave act of sin that Hamas would simply not be permitted to continue its work because an Islamic Sharia court would lock those leaders supporting and facilitating these acts in prison.

                  Does this defend or negate the part of Israel as the instagator? No Does this excuse other Palestinian organisations encouraging suicide bombings from the same fate??? No of course not Is this an attempt to slurr anyone on this site??? No

                  I would only ask that al-Khiyal takes comments for what they are and not what he percieves them to be, especially since I have clearly restated my case on many many occassions.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Al-khiyal
                    But Hamas was not the topic, voltaire. Suicide bombing was. And so if criticism is to be levelled it must be levelled everywhere. It is to build a completely false argument to suggest that Hamas and Hamas fatwas are the principle problem when that is clearly not true. So trying to push forward a Procrustean analysis that fails completely to address other groups, and that additionally completely fails to explain Christian or secular suicide bombers in the wider context of suicide bombings in general, is partial at best, deliberately inaccurate at worst. If suicide bombings are to be understood - and criticized - then singling out one party in particular and treating the other groups that have used the same attacks as somehow less relevant seems a very odd way of going about it.
                    If that were the case then you should have stated this at the very start. If that were the case then you should have said yes Hamas is wrong but here are other groups who are also wrong and what would I have said???? I would have said thankyou very much, you are 100% right.

                    You however did not do that and went left then right and now down the middle.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ElHenni
                      Originally posted by Al-khiyal
                      You have falsely accused people on this site of being supporters of murder before. Don't you dare try doing that with me.
                      Now who is making the sweeping statement, I have not accused anyone of any such thing to my memory, bring your evidence or retract the statement and YOU DO NOT DARE TO THREATEN ME, you have niether intimidated me nor upset me, the only intimidation you could inflict upon me is if you take my comments in good faith and argue with me in good faith and in such a way that only addresses what I say and the ACTUAL points I convey. What a silly way to come at me, it didnt work
                      "I have not accused anyone of any such thing to my memory."

                      There is very clearly something very wrong with your memory then, El Henni, because you apologized to me, via pm, for making the comment to other members here and agreed that is was not a wise or a correct thing to have said. The post where you made the comment was, along with others deleted. The members to whom you addressed the remark know very well that you did and I am not going to reignite that ugly incident by naming them here. Your denial now is meaningless as there are others who are well aware of the comment you made and once again you are asking for 'evidence' as if the request exonerates you from reponsibility for your own remarks. You have accused members here of being supporters of murder. Fact. You were told, by me, that that was a wrong thing to do. Fact. You apologized to me. Fact. The posts wherein you had made the comment were deleted by agreement. Fact.

                      You have succeeded, in this post, of demonstrating your complete lack of understanding of events in Palestine and its seems that you had not done much reading about suicide bombings there, or anywhere else for that matter, before posting your flawed and weak analysis. The initial article that you posted would have sufficed. You undermine your own arguments when you treat them partially and inaccurately. You have also exhibited some signs of convenient memory loss and once again I would remind you that accuracy is something that you should aspire to.

                      Comment


                      • This has become a joke.

                        In the first instance you manipulate my writings as I have clearly showed.

                        You take my writings totally out of context as I have clearly showed.

                        You accuse me of things that I never said as is clear what what you accused me of and what I have written, me not having edited any of my posts.

                        You now accuse me of having accused others of supporting suicide bombings. You back this up with a deleted thread and a pm I apparently sent you.

                        I remember sending you a pm appologising a long while back and it wasnt for my comments but if I recall it was about the way with which I went about what I said and that perhaps it might not be appropriate for me to mention it. Not that I was wrong but simply that it was perhaps better left alone. If you look at this post as an example I have appologised to you more than 6 times, just in this post. I dont think that I was wrong but I respected you and did not want to offend you so out of respect and humility I appologised eventhough, to my mind, I said nothing wrong except for wrongly stating the number of suicide attacks which I clearly admitted to.

                        You now go into my past posts eventhough you clearly have said in the past that it is best not to ressurect past posts to bring about old argments, you then try and generalise the basic gist of a pm I sent you in confidence and use that against me.

                        This is my last post on this subject. In good spirit I will conclude my postings here by saying I am sorry if I upset you and I sincerely appologise if I have been wrong in anything I said. I dont believe I have done this but if so I appologise and may Allah (swt) forgive the both of us, Ameen.

                        Wassalamu Alaikum Warahmatallahi Taa'ala Wabarakatuh

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ElHenni
                          You now accuse me of having accused others of supporting suicide bombings. You back this up with a deleted thread and a pm I apparently sent you.
                          Learn to read more carefully, El Henni. Your failure to do so perhaps accounts for your overall sloppiness when it comes to analysis.

                          I have nowhere accused you of having accused others of supporting suicide bombings. I have stated, as a fact, that you accused others of being supporters of murder, which you did.

                          The administrator of this site, other mods and other members saw your comment. The administrator of this site agreed that it was not the kind of comment that we want to see here. In more than one pm that was exchanged between you and I at the time you agreed that your comment was unwise and incorrect. Reliance on memory lapses might suit you, El Henni, but it is of little value when other witnesses have better and more reliable memories.

                          The reason I raised the matter at all is because once again, after a challenge, you seemed to think it was OK to infer by extension that because someone disagreed with you about certain things this suggested, to you, that their position was of uncritical support for other things. This is both an illogical and an unpleasant way of conducting any discussion and eliminating such leaps of imagination from your discourse is recommended.

                          w/salam

                          Comment

                          Unconfigured Ad Widget

                          Collapse
                          Working...
                          X