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Hatred Embodied [Monti Hate, i like that name :D:D:D]

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  • Hatred Embodied [Monti Hate, i like that name :D:D:D]

    Cursed into reality, a hopeless netherworld
    Where your fear culminates, wretchedness prevails
    Mastering your misery, call upon your agony!

    Look to me for I am the one who dominates your soul
    Look to me for I am the one, destroy your only hope
    Mastering your misery, call upon your agony!

    I will make you see the horror
    Conjuring your every thought
    Twisted rapture manifesting
    Terrorizing your worthless being

    Tearful, useless, imprecations
    Illustrates your weakness
    Decrepit being
    Crawling, scratching
    Fingers gripping
    Where do you think you are going?
    There's no escaping
    From this dominion
    You are now f**ked!
    Summoning all my hate
    Choking you
    Gasping for your last breath
    I will not let you leave this existence
    You have failed you f**king fool, this is forever!

  • #2
    Dear Mantigore,

    I have my mind on you as of late...

    You are too young to remember this movie, no doubt, but there is a great film starring Anthony Quinn called " Zorba the Greek. " The author of Zorba, Nikos Kazantzakis, in his autobiography relates the following anecdote:

    As a young man, he used to visit monetaries on Mt. Athos, interviewing the monks who lived there. In one rather memorable interview he engaged an old monk who had a great reputation for holiness:

    He asked this monk, " Do you still struggle with the devil? "

    " Oh, no, " the old man replied, "I used to struggle with him, when I was young, but now I've grown old and tired and the devil has grown old and tired with me. We leave each other alone! "

    " So it's easy for you now ? " asked the young Kazantzakis.

    " Oh no, " replied the old man, " it's worse, far worse! Now I wrestle with God! "

    " You wrestle with God, " said the surprised young Kazantzakis, " and hope to win? "

    " No, " replied the old monk, " I wrestle with God and hope to lose! "

    Mantigore, do not take offense in this remark...: Your feelings are personal to you, but your situation is common to many.

    You DO have a talent, and perhaps it will serve you as well in the future when you have emerged from this from the blackness that now plagues you...



    " Natura...semina nobis scientiae dedit; scientiam non dedit. "
    ( " Nature has given us the seed of knowledge; she has not given us knowledge." )


    • #3
      Addison- You need to setup up a site on geaocities with your story - I am tempted to do it but it would be a theft and I am wresling with god, my hands are tied ! Amen. J.


      • #4
        Dear Jugurten,

        You scoundrel! Where have you been!?

        You won't believe how I struggle to keep from calling you Jurgen....I am a huge fan of Jurgen Prochnow, and I think of his name when I look at yours...

        Jugurten, what is geaocities? I am a real dolt when it comes to this computer stuff..Admittedly, I think it took me three weeks to figure out how to set up my e-mail account.( DUHHHHHHHH. ) I know little about internet, and even less about my own computer. I never had one or worked on one ( a personal-type ) before a year ago...

        Oh, ...for what it is worth, my story would be mind-bogglingly dull ( YAWN. )

        Are you ok ? Or are you just messing about with me when you "said" you were wrestling with God? Hmmm?

        Take care,

        Best regards,


        " Non nobis solum nati sumus. "
        ( " We were not born only for ourselves. " ) M. Tullius Cicero


        • #5
          Hello Darling !

          Good to hear from you, I just posted the answer, and also posted one about - How are you? -
          You know, I remember having exchanged last week something with you about the religion thing - You sent me a nice answer with compliments and more questions. I wanted to comment about but definately wanted to take my time and organize if not my thoughts at least my writing of them (LOL), then a nice week end came by and I did not get it - Blame the Cherryblossom (Japanese). Now, in my previous(to this) answer I meant that my morality/value-system stops me from posting your extract or reporting Zorba's story, because you have the merit.
          geocities is a portal where you can create web pages and have them availble for all to see. Your personal presence online.

          Are you still online?



          • #6
            Dear Jugurten,

            Good evening to you ( well, it is where I am...)

            I am more and more inclined to say with regards to religion, "to each his own..."

            RATHER! I fear that after so long a search, and after finally finding some sort of resolution, I feel less concerned with the art of persuasion. I believe tha every man ( and woman? ) must come to his or her own conclusions in good time, and no argument, no matter how carefully and
            convincingly presented will persuade or dissuade anyone until the time is proper. Like it is with this
            " Mantigore " fellow. I want to hand him peace of mind on a silver platter, but no one can do it for him. It is a painful process, be it slow or quick, and is of a very intimate nature...We, as outsiders are helpless to offer little more than a mute support...No?

            Ha! I feel that if you had time to organize your thoughts, I would be quite lost in them again. You are much better at relaying your ideas in some concise fashion than I am...Much of the time, I read your posts and think, "bloody hell, how shall I respond to THAT?"

            You best me in this area for certain, but I am not above putting my weakness on display...Certainly, there are those who will take advantage of such knowledge, and this is the danger of doing such a thing. However, it is always interesting to see how people will respond to such vulnerablitiy. One always expects the worst, but it is always such a pleasant surprise to find that occasionally the opposite is true.

            Cherry blossoms? Are you in Georgetown???

            As for posting the anecdote, well, the words are not mine, are they, so I reckon that you would be well within your right to post them, provided that you disclosed the source from whence they came...that great author...It IS a good story to be sure.

            Geocities ...this sounds like something I would be better off avoiding entirely! God, I love the word "portal" though...It reminds me of Dr. Who or something...( A bit before your time??? ! )Or, ..Blackadder or something...

            I reckon that my personal presence on line is about as interesting as the John Proctor action figure...( OK, for all you kids out there....try, "the Crucible" for a reference to John Proctor...!! Let's just say it would be really dull...)

            I have the rather annoying habit of posting and then running off, as if I can't bear to see what response
            my posts my elicit. I feel pretty certain that "Mantigore " is going to tell me to " get stuffed" pretty soon, but I DID ask for it.

            Take care, and have a good evening ( or morning...)

            Best regards,


            " The great tragedy of life is not that men perish, but that they cease to love. " Somerset Maugham


            • #7
              Dear Maddison,

              Good evening indeed it is here as well. I am not in Georgetown but not far, between there and AU. Do you know Washington?

              religion, "to each his own..." Yes definately ! The problem is not religion by itself, it's what people make of it, and definately how they use its protection to gain some legitimacy to their agression and trespassing on others liberties.

              I agree that persuasion is vain, but smetime when you know that the users of religion to waste others' life, one has to be compelled to not just sit and watch, but do the minimum - say NO ! - And if someone has the courage and the good will to intervene, then you applaud ! I guess. Why do you even question whether woman has also the right to choose their religion? This idea of Man/WOman has got to disappear except in bed, because there the difference is natural, anywhere else it's man-made and illegitimate. It can only be based on force not reason. I am definately not an ousider anymore. I have live the 1st 20 years of my life in ALgeria, and have known and experienced the agression of the Muslim fanatics - I mean violence I have undergone and witnessed on others on campus, and yes on the land of my ancesters - The reason there are more of them than of us is because ours were all lost during the war of independance - That's the land of my ancesters since before the beginning of time - Muslims call Amazigh people in ALgeria "Indians/Apaches". I moved to the US, and that's not an easy journey either, and there it comes following to
              the land of the "Apache" - Now, the APache land is not my home by heritage but by FREE-association, it is my other home. It is a double agression! From the Muslims that is, or should I be more precise "African Muslims", because one has got to be fair, I have met many true Arab and Muslims, and some became my friends while I was on camps. The reason I have not kept any is because the all went back home where they could dispose of oil revenue in form of loans and start their business, unfortunately, not me. Oil revenue in Algeria were invested in mosqs and forcing Arabic language and culture into peoples mind who rejected....
              At any rate, you understand that there are enough grounds for me to hate that religion and any other religion, but I don't...Not worth the effort or the real estate in my mind.
              So on forums like this, you think well one could perhaps debate something with reason, and as you know people keep bringing this Mohamed and Islam thing... I have got to write some, and prevent them from agressing other people on the the ALgeria Virtual soil - ! dragg you into conflict as Algerians while wearing algerian flag. So, you see why and how I find myself having to engage the subject. Those who seem able to think, I feel compelled to share with them an ALgerian thought about religion as Algerians since always lived it, particularly Augustine. One has to tell the Palestinians you want to talk peace go tell it to your immediate cousin The Israeli - My immediate cousin is the African Negro - I am ALgerian, and ALgeria is African. One has to begin at home and work your way out to your nbrothers and neighbours. Those are other Africans. These are the ones we need to dialogue with. That's how I find myself in the subject matter in fact... I have had problems with white folks too, and it takes 30 minutes with a white person to take him straight to the reality, and story over, you move on to something else, because there is some thinking, but the M-Fanatic? noway ! That's why military government survives in ALgeria, to respond to the jihad mentality - They have made it a necessity ! Just as they did in Iraq I guess...

              You lost in my writings? No way, I have read you and amazed at how much clarity and definately willingness to listen and compromise (probably) hoping for the same in return. I take it, and I guess you have gotten tired. You see, Ramsfeld and Cheney, And the Bush know well the culture, and just followed the protocole... result: Jubilant people in the streets... No Shiites in the south. Bush and co know that it's useless, but they are just trying to save the face(domage control), at the end, there is only one thing that works with these dudes : JIHAD. You ask, you will never get out of it, you arder, they execute, because they simply can't fight back (too lazy) or some thing...perhaps it's the silky dresses (LOL). What do you answer to the critics of every thing western, and the same time they are the prime comsummers of it? But I know that you have understood all of that, you were perhaps trying to dance with accept one step in the other direction and expect one in yours...It never works, people have tried to do it for hundreds of years(all religions concerned by the way - they just don't take responsibility until you or FBI does it for them)...Then they came up with THE REPUBLIC !

              I do not best you in any thing darling, we differ perhaps and that's a good thing (as Ramsfeld says) - Before the war some journalist asked him (did you hear Bishop Titou saying that war was an offense to people and god? Ramsfeld answers: Yes, but now that that deadline has passed there will be war! ahahahahahaha...with his silly smile !

              YOU:"One always expects the worst, but it is always such a pleasant surprise to find that occasionally the opposite is true."
              You flatter me in that I decipher your finding comfort and hope somehow in something I must have posted. I say "must have" because many times, I engage in the "Jihad-language in response only to use the logic I mentioned earlier" - Converge in protocole(even one I don't like)in order to be understood. I hope that whatever you concluded, you will dare now when you cite it in outside this context, dare multiply it by millions, because I am but a reflection of many who unfortunately are obliged to have a gun or a stick in their hands instead of a keyboard, because evil is knocking at their doors.

              Well the absolute merite goes to the AUthor of Zorba, but there is merit in understanding, quoting without distorting and mapping into a relevant context. That's what give it real meaning, and bring it life, otherwise it is but ink on paper. Isn't it always the merchant that make more profit of a product than the producer?

              ADDson:OK, for all you kids out there....try, "the Crucible" for a reference to John Proctor...!! Let's just say it would be really dull...)

              Are you mothering us, I am probably older than you think, and probably most people in this forum too...And by the way, not all are from North America, I sense some european presence and Algerian too. How do they manage to get time online? Go figure !

              A: I have the rather annoying habit of posting and then running off, as if I can't bear to see what response
              my posts my elicit. I feel pretty certain that "Mantigore " is going to tell me to " get stuffed" pretty soon, but I DID ask for it.

              J: You know what, his fingers are free to type whatever he thinks, and that too he's free to think whatever he wants to! - Why would he do that? Are you telling me that because of that, you might have just comfirmed his suspicions of "The American woman?" - Well then wait until he hears the song "American woman, stay away from me !..."

              This is late typing, after dinner at Zorba's !...You gave me the idea ahahahahaha..... There wasn't a single greek in the kichen...all mexican youth, the busboy a man from morocco (in his 50s looking like 70) - It makes me sick !



              • #8
                Dear Jugurten,

                Greetings, and good afternoon...

                I appreciate your response. I will comment on it momentarily, however let me first tell you that if I do not
                hit upon each subject it is not due to the fact that I think them unimportant, rather that I am unable to answer you adquately, due to time constraints, or due to the fact that you have stymied me once again!

                Om, yes, I know Washington, but perhaps not as intimately as you seem to...I am from Baltimore, and spent a great deal of time there, but lived in Va. as well....I know places in Washington more than I know actual streets, if you know what I mean. I miss going there for the cultural
                aspects, if for no other reason...

                You are quite right in writing that the problem with "religion" is in "what people make of it."
                I am particularly disturbed by those who commit crimes in " the name of God. " This seems to me to lack any logic at all...But then I certainly do not claim to know the mind of God. Still, I find it hard to believe that He would encourage such actions...

                Now I must admit, I believe that you have lost me with your comment, " Why do you even question whether woman has also the right to choose their religion? " I cannot figure what I may have written to give you the impression that this was the case in my mind. When it comes to religion,
                I think that the issue of gender is irrelevant, no? Help me clarify where I may have led you into the wrong impression.

                I confess that I have absolutley no knowldge of how it must have been for you to grow up in Algeria, and
                therefore, I do rely on you to give me some insight, as you are now doing. I grew up in seclusion, and have not the same experiences of most from America, and certainly have No concept of what it must have been like for you. The first 17 years of my life were little more than books and music, and little interaction with people, so pardon me if I do seem a bit naive...I do appreciate your
                expounding upon your experiences. Now one thing that I can easily imagine is the difficulty you no doubt experienced upon your move to the US.

                Your comment about having Arab and Muslim friends reminds me still of this crazy desire I have that people would someday be able to see each other as individuals, instead of a as a Jew, or a Black man, or a Gay guy or a nun, or whatever. As soon as we call them these things - they are not bad things, nay! but damaging nevertheless - we have instantly categorized them, and lumped them into a big
                group. It is easier to mangae them that way I guess, and it requires a lot less thought, but wouldn't it be nice if we could just see each other as humans first? Then we could have friends from every nation, and from any religion, whether we agreed with their agendas or not. ( Yeah, I know, naive again.... )

                This word "jihad " makes me want to break out in hives. I always thought it to mean a struggle against anything
                which threatened to separate me from God. I see the more aggressive explanations of it, and try to imagine that
                this sort of thinking may have been justified in the time in which it was first proposed, but is this way of thinking relevant today?

                No, I have not "gotten tired! " It is just this Jugurten: I have no religion to fall back upon. I have sort of branched out into my own philosophy, if you will, and hold to no specific "organized" religious thought. I suppose I have taken what I found helpful from a few different religions I have had contact with in my life, and now apply them to my life. I have nothing real to base an argument upon anymore, save the truth of my own feelings. This sort of thing is nice for personal conviction, but it
                makes for a damn lousy argument!

                You mention D. Rumsfeld...Let me ask you, as I have asked another member of this site..: Is he not the most unabashedly awful liar you have ever heard? You'd think that if the US wanted to select a "Mouth" for their viewpoints, that they could have found one who could at least lie with some degree of plausability...

                Yes, I expect the worst and then often find that am pleasantly surprised. People are impossible to gauge.
                We just have to dive right in and see what happens I suppose. I hope for the best, though I DO expect the worst!
                No matter whom I engage...You?

                OH, OK, I'll rock your world. I just turned 41 this month.

                I suppose I was in jest somewhat when I said that I post and run off...I do not often have the time to be at the computer for long enough of a period to post something in a proper fashion, and do have the tendency to post 'n' dash for that reason. However, there is this idea that
                if I hang around ( on a day say, when I DO have the time to, ) then I may become engaged, and in doing so, must clip out these short posts back and forth, and I am absolutely awful at it. I simply cannot spit these things out like you clever young folks, and I dare not even try now... Am I making sense at all? I feel that once again I have expressed myself quite poorly.

                Oh, well, yes, I just don't want Mantigore to think that I am stalking him or something...That is what I meant
                by the "get stuffed " remark. He might see me as a bit of a t***.

                OK, I must run, as I am on a break.

                Nice to chat with you, even if you do go right over my head most of the time..At least you are courteous about it!!

                Take care,

                Best regards,


                "Deo volente " ( " With God willing " )


                • #9

                  Good to read you again...

                  It is nice to follow a protocole or rather a structure in communication, isn't the word, the essential part of the definition of communication all together!? I sense that you have caught me answering paragraph after another in my previous postings; I too sometimes try to be careful because depending on the subject, one might convey something one never even thought of. Of course, I would expect a question from a rational person in such cases, but one has to realize that there is the possibility that what one says feeds another's rage, and I admit that I have identified(not that it matters) some folks on this site who are on fire and would not hesitate to jump on such opportunities. The other reason is to try to take into consideration topics/points that are worth your typing and acknowledge them, otherwise it become sonner that one thinks a one way street talk(monolog). i.e just pouring and thinking that others will just swallow. At any rate, I enjoy reading you, even though I think that you maybe flatter me a bit more than I deserve, because honestly sometimes I read myself afterwords, and discover that I neglected to be concise, and regret it... So, I just hope for the best. Hope is what drives people I heard (LOL)

                  Let me share this with you: I was today at a coffee shop and a guy showed me a picture of a shiite in Araq dressed in white, with a sabre and his blood running down from his head...we chatted briefly, and he concluded with "I guess Saddam was not that awful !"(from saving from such practices I assumed, he meant). It was on W-Post cover page.

                  You are correct in saying that I know Washington well. It is the city where I lived the most and longest during my adult life, and the US the country in my entire life. I feel guilty sometimes when I realize that I came to the US already grown up, with mucho mathematics in my head and just ready to produce, but I can but say "thank you", because I was not stolen by AMerica, I was rather driven away by Algeria (like many others) - Nowadays, I am far far away from being thankful, I am critical ! especially now that I have 15 nieces and nephews. As the judge who presided my oath-ceremony said "You have all the priviledge a citizan has already, and even more as a residents in that you can benefit from tax examption, and other responsibilities. Entering citizanship is deciding by your free will to share responsibilities of defending freedom, starting with your own, and definately to fight status quo in the USA" - I will never forget that. WHat I mean is that Algeria I left has chosen to loose me, and I think of myself as a sample of such losses - I have met many people of ALgerian co-citizenship who feel the same. It is only outside Algeria that we seek "protocole" - I do not know a single person from my region of Kabylie here. I probably seem harsh somehow on muslims sometimes, but I assure you and many others that I have hatred toward Moslims just because they are moslims, but I definately answer their demeanour. They have always refused to cooperate for democracy while they had been favored, pushed forward by the regime in place. Anyhow, it's irrelevant now, their existance in the political arena is now history in the minds of Algerians. At what price? Only god knows ! All have realized that not only Extremism hurts the religion itself, it prevents other people from benefiting from whatever it has of good that fits one's needs. All or nothing theories are just darn stupid to me! I do not think that anyone has ever known the mind of god, since it seems that humans have never used more than 5% of their minds, and I believe that it is where the most active part of God's mind is. The rest is in nature or its order or pattern that is. I feel like you in that regard, in that I realize that when I wonder about such subjects as God, nature and what have you that are way way from my grasp, it is usually a sign that my brain is iddle...LOL...It is also believed that women are more inclined to entertain divinity and religion in their lives... According to the previous observation (about my iddleness) does that mean that they are inclined to not use their brain? (did you register a spike of unger in your mind as you read this one?) -It was meant as a tease ! That brings us to the confusion about why did I ask you " Why do you even question whether woman has also the right to choose their religion? " in the previous posting. Well, your in the posting prior to it gave the impression of asking a question by including a question mark "?" in a remark that turned it into a question in my mind - The remark was about MAN having the right to choose his religion and ending with (woman?), and that's what made it a question in my then (non iddle brain LOL). Trust me I did not take it litterally !
                  Growing up in Algeria, was the best experience of my life until the age where I had to confront the fact that I had to live with FANATICS - It's not Islam per say, it's government policies then. I grew up in a village where everybody knew everybody else - a village is a huge family, and every village had a Saint(founder or major contributor to the village or simply an ancestral figure for all) - Knowledge one acquired from the outside world is irrelevant. Minister(as head of gov department "i.e Secretary is US topology), but a jack in the village - Every family had land, and even domestic animals had the attribute "Nath" "OF" in Amazigh/Berber (notice not "BIN" which is son of in Arabic) which is "of" or "belonging to" a region or family which itself is designated by the region for oldest families - dog, etc. are not just things but living things... People were not vegitarians but meat is an occasion thing! I went to schools ran by Jesuits (though not a theology teaching, but science and useful stuff) and worked the land with my grand mother - Males a rare comodity. Many died fighting Natzi Germany defending France, and most fighting the French Army afterwords- I did not know my grand parents! The priests who tought in my region(Kabylie are very humble, and definately trusted by people for they have proven themselves during the independance war) - The Superior who ran my school has refused to leave the village during the 1992 Islamists' attack, and ended up assassinated by them. This is someone I have called "father" many more times than I did my real one. But again all that is history. It is not until that assassination in 1994, that I began going on a regular basis to the Jesuit services in Georgetown, where I feel at home. Indeed, in Jesuit institutions, I feel that people look at me with more than respect, but pure legitimacy probably for the lineage to Augustine. In that, I feel that Algerians in general could change their status with regard to morality and even religeous affairs like no one could since the two most popular religions in the western hemisphere (Christianity and Islam) have met reality and maturity in North Africa. (I would say that Judaism too from early Christianity and freedom of being a Jew during French occupation, but that freedom vanished more or less after independance) - From the African experience of these has the idea and ideals of democracy raisen. It's like a patent if you will, whose product has been abandonned !
                  Litteracy and only litteracy can free one's mind and open his/her eyes, but I admit that many times I loose even that hope especially when I see people who closing their minds to logic in front of real or perceived agression. But hey, who am I to say ? The most difficult part of my life in ALgeria in Algeria is to see a government that would lounch a military special/secret police attack onto students and country's most prominent intellectual in the middle of the night, at its only "PURE MATHEMATICS" campus of 150 students of which I am the produce, while building mosqs and granting total immunity in grave assaults against female students especially and others such as blacks from Africa(mostly from socialist congo) who had just came out of a similar struggle for independance. It has been the worst for me, it is then that I have finshed growing up, and began maturing, when I was assaulted physically by a monster Palestinian (Arabic teacher refugee) on the land of my ancesters - Be it from my antiqual ancestry, Roman ancestral-citizenship, or Gladiator blood line, or simply my ALgerian citizenship such gorilla should never be allowed to breath over the African land. It is then that he awakened Jugurta. I probably sound somehow tolerent of the current military government in Algeria, it is I must admit because they do the dirty work for the Algerian who does not know! - Then, the Palestinian and Arab whatever question for grandiose whatever Nasser's click which includes Saddam were almost a national issue then; noadays, it is where Algerians find some hope because they can say "At least we are not as doomed as they are" - So, they expand sympathy and humanity with a profound separation of their struggle from the middle eastern one, which is but theological. Of course there exists the totally lost who still prays east insted of the only direction for Algerians South in the morning and West in the evening because indeed we are Africans and Africa is South, and West because ALgeria is the creddle of the West, but go figure ! In that sense, ALgeria has never benefited from its encounter with both Islam or Arabic language. They have both been sabottaged by the shoving of it into people's throat by givernment and the fanatic beast whose jihad turned against and finished for good. As I wrote elswhere, Arabic itself began falling at the arrival of that theology. Many measure the fall or the rise by the number of people Islam has succeeded in controlling or loosing instead of innovation, discovery and scientific advancement. In the Algerian histoty especially that of independance from France, the Islamist attitude was like the one you see now in the shiite in Iraq, they invoq "non-involvement" to Save their ass for afterwords - Well, they became a majority after words ! They then hijacked the FLN. That was the source of my harsh/confrontational vocabulary towards many people attitudes and topics on the forum. It is not hate for hate as someone accused me of, but rather a window into the life of those who matter the most to me, and still in a struggle in Algeria today "The Amazigh, especially in my native mountains of Kabylie".
                  Now, where is that, that you were able to grow up in SECLUSION in AMerica? is that possible? or was it elsewhere?
                  I am really curious to know. I am surprized given the clarity of thought you have shown on this board or at least in post-postback trail between you and I, that you would need any religion to take from any thing. I think that "the republic ideals" as implemented in the United States give all the room, and the directions one would need to at least attempt to achieve the most they could of their potential. Let's share another experience: I was Monday at AU Law School with an Alumini (sister of your Congressman I believe) to a debate and 2 book signing ceromony, where the Authors were "A judge - conservative side-book" in his late 50s and the other a constitutional law professor in his 40s. The professor under-title was "The United States vs. Suprem Court" referring to 2000 elections. The debate also touched into a problem "The lifetime appointment of the supremes" ahahahaha... The idea of government interference in one's thinking or speech for whatever reason national security or not was just of a bad taste to the judge...So, you leave the place (universtity) with hope and pride and definately not the way I left my campus back when. The professor "A JEW" (for others to read) is fervent in defense of Palestinians, Arab-Americans in general and the idea of secret evidence, etc. that could be used against them... One can call it just sweet talk, but trust is from my own observations "Jewish Lawyer are always those who find in teir psyche a reason to defend a semite/brother, an arab even thos most crual one!" A non jew would not even touch the case - The room was full of people from every background imaginable... I think it is how America has become what it is today...By stealing the hearts of the best minds on earth since way way when. On that aspect, I agree with you, Washington is a real treat culturally. You go out any day and you can have a drink and meet an exotic accomplished opposit sex person to debate with while enjoying the company, and awakening your senses. Amongst them, Arab woman, very popular and wanted, and yes in washington, they are a prime exotic comodoty. (I'm gonna get killed !) - One need to see Alexa/Egypt walk ! Wow !
                  However, I must admit that one can experience similar effects and satisfaction reading a post on the DOT-COM bulletin board of the most dangerous place to be on earth, Algeria, and for that I am sorry.

                  Hope didn't bore you to death !

                  Have a nice evening.



                  • #10
                    Dear Jugurten,

                    I must tell you that after reading your post here, I lost a bit of the elation which I felt upon the receipt of your post on the other thread...It made me a bit melancholy all afternoon, as it gave me occasion to reconsider how very foolish I am and how very little I really know. Reading
                    about some of your life experiences which you so unabashedly shared with us only serves to remind me how very dull, and in many ways priviledged my life has been. Once again you have stymied me. Your post is brimming with ideas and I scarcely know where to begin.

                    I will begin with Hope. Yes, I do believe that it is what drives people on. I do not hope in myself anymore, as that is an idea fraught with failure. But in others, yes. And of course, in God.

                    With regard to your coffee-shop encounter...well, goodness, I cannot imagine the diversity in opinions which you must be privy to being in such a hot-bed as the Downtown area. Quite frankly, I have, at last, tried to distance myself from what is going on with Iraq and the World Powers at present, as I found myself saying to myself so often, " I TOLD you this would happen." and in
                    addition to the ill-will I still feel concerning the events that have transpired, I am also digusted with the sound of my own silent voice. ( Yep, there is a metaphor in there if you look hard enough.) How do you respond to the many voices of pro and con which ring in your ears on a daily basis I wonder...

                    Of Kabylie, I know little but from post cards sent to me by my father, some cloth which he brought back to me,
                    and my admiration for an artist from the region, Hocine Hettal. Have you ever seen his work? I only do charcoals, and because of my particular fondness for the medium, I was drawn to his work instantly. Do you think me tragic? I found your depiction of your childhood days to have been rather potent in its ability to create pictures in my mind of such a life in such a place. And yet, this is a thing that I can never know, and certainly never understand. Do you not feel a great man for having this in your personal history?

                    Oh, I have found that nearly all religions have their extremists..I do wonder that these people feel as if they have nothing at all in their lives but this one idea ( or belief, if you will ) and are therefore driven by the desperation of ( dare I say it? ) loneliness to commit acts
                    whose consequences mean little to them, as they have little or nothing to lose. What are your thoughts on this?

                    I think that you have made an exceptionally salient point when you write, " ...that not only Extremism hurts the religion itself, it prevents other people from benefiting from whatever it has of good that fits one's needs. " I read you to mean then, that not only is the behavior
                    NON-productive, it is COUNTER-productive, in that it actually THWARTS efforts to be productive. No? If so, I am in TOTAL agreement. " All or nothing theories, " as you call them, are not only foolish, but completely non-viable, I would think. It is much like so many of those horrific fad diets ( that remain high in popularity for whatever reason ) that require one to do without this
                    food and that food, and ....Well, it may work for a while, certainly, but how long can one keep up the behavior? It is an unnatural state to deprive oneself of the things one enjoys. I may lose weight on a no-carb diet, but at some point I am going to crave that brownie so much that I will
                    give into the temptation. And in many cases, once this happens, things spiral quite out of control. Now I do not mean to trivialize religious thought by comparing it to diet-behavior, but I think you get my drift, no?

                    I am interested in this thing you wrote about women being more inclined to " entertain divinity and religion in their lives..." Do you believe this? I think I can easily believe this, though I would have a most difficult time explaining why...I mean that I could not express the sentiment without perhaps being misunderstood ( and here I harken back to your opening paragraph.) Shall I argue then
                    that women, by nature, have a desire towards constancy, whereas men are more transient in their desires. Um, how shall I put this without putting my boots in a puddle? With your indulgence, I will use myself as an example, and use the vernacular of present day "courtship, " if you will. I have no use for, nor desire for the idea of many romantic involments in my life, but prefer only the one, and will be content to wait for it until it comes, whereas the modern day pattern is to have as many partners as one can have until desire is depleted. Is it because I am female that I would prefer to know everything about ONE man, than to know a few things about many? Or is it me? I may be presumptuous (and perhaps some ladies will come behind me here and prove me quite wrong! ) but I do believe that it has no small thing to do with my sex. God is a stability, perhaps the only stability in a female's life, whereas men are not as reliant upon that which is unchanging, but by nature are perhaps more adventurous, and do gravitate towards that which is mutable, and ever testing their endurance in whatever fashion, be it emotional or physical.

                    Or, I could just be full of fluff.

                    Oh, and I have found that a lot of women do not use their brains...But I think that this is because they have been led to believe that it is not essential that they do so.

                    Ah, the Jesuits...You are indeed fortunate. They are a noble breed. I admire their tradition of discipline.
                    My goodness yes, what a legacy of scientic achievement... yes! However, I do not admire their church fathers. My novitiate convinced me that I could never have a lasting
                    relationship with the Catholic any of its forms ( such as Lutheran, or what I like to refer to as "Catholic Lite." ) No offense to you Jugurten as you seem to have found your niche, and for that I am happy.

                    Interesting, but at last I begin to see a distinction between what you refer to as an " Algerian " struggle and the " middle eastern one. " Is it not odd that I had not seen such a separation before, but merely lumped everything together into one big religious issue. In this manner of thinking, as you see, I can be incredibly simple-minded. You have given me much to ponder...And thatis good.

                    I think perhaps my use of the word seclusion" does invoke a certain image which may not be accurate, and I apologize for my lack of a better term, and hope that it has not led you too far astray. What I mean to say is that I grew up in a very strict household...I was not allowed out as most youth are, into the company of strangers. I was also schooled at home until I was of age to leave. To young people today this idea may seem quite absurd, but in truth, had I my own children, I would today do the very same. The quality of the schools is quite poor, the atmosphere is dangerous and not at all conducive to learning, the abilities of the teachers are questionable at best, and the students themselves are quite mindless,
                    easily distracted ( and therefore disruptive, ) and have little ambition towards improving themselves scholastically while there remains the temptation to learn a sport and make millions without having to think at all. My mother was fanatical in her devotion to the idea of
                    "sparing the rod and spoiling the child," and in my father's many absences overseas she turned the proverb
                    into an Art form. ( We now realize that she was, of course, not...quite ...right, shall we say...) Consequently, she forbade me congregation among the "outlanders," and there was no male in my life apart from family members until I left home. I kept indoors most of the time, and in my room, at that, with the company of books, and that is about the extent of it until I left. So it is not as if I lived in solitary confinement, but I did have a rather odd childhood, and it had a lasting effect on
                    me I must say, even into adulthood. ( Trust me on this one! ) I have thankfully never outgrown my affection for the written word, and perhaps that is why I was so late coming into this "computer age. " I am a biblioholic and proud of it. I should very much like to become as those people in " Fahrenheit 451 " who memorize books and recite them to keep them alive in the event that they are taken away...

                    As a side note, I think that lifetime appointments for S.C.Judges is preposterous. But I am in a minority I suspect .Oh Lord, have you been keeping up with the recent "corporate" speech issue that is being debated? These lawyers are absolutely brilliant at convoluted language are they not? Still, the issue of free speech as it is guaranteed by the Constitution is yet another example
                    of how the Law will be bent to the will of those who have the most money...

                    I would rather not talk of what America has become, as I feel that America is fabulous. I will say that I think its leaders have become disgraceful, and its Government become quite corruptable and completely without conscience. It is a revolting thought. It absolutely sickens me.

                    Jugurten I do not understand your comment regarding the Arab women. !!

                    No, you did not bore me to death! Perish the thought! Thanks for your forthright response!

                    Best regards,


                    " Make reason thy guide. "


                    • #11
                      Glad to see my little outlash brought to people together! Not.

                      Addison, you shouldnt have your mind anywhere near thinking of me.
                      You have no idea of my age.
                      What situation are you speaking of, you dont know a thing about me.
                      A talent for what ?

                      "You DO have a talent, and perhaps it will serve you as well in the future when you have emerged from this from the blackness that now plagues you... "

                      Blackness that plagues me, i like that! But im not saying its true or that you have any idea what your talking about.



                      • #12
                        Dear Mantigore,

                        You need not be so harsh. !! Since I have just become 41 I make the assumption that I am about the oldest fossil on this site...I meant it tongue in cheek, as they say. But really, your exclamation of the word, "NOT!" in your last post is a bit of a give away...No?

                        As for the situation which I refer to, of course I do not know yours specifically. What I meant is that people all the time are having to deal with disturbances and traumas and what have you that threaten to take away their hope and feelings for themselves and for others. The language of your speech leads one to believe that you are in pain or conflict, and this is what I refer to. Of course you will deny it, but it is rather transparent, even with a veil of deceit.

                        Talent. You have a poetic talent. If you have been able to use these feelings as poetic expressions then you have a real gift. Why deny it. Perhaps you do it with purpose, or perhaps you are unaware of your doing it. I cannot tell.


                        You may well say that I do not know what I am talking about. You may say anything at all I expect.



                        " Our patience will achieve more than our force. "


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Addison
                          Dear Mantigore,

                          You need not be so harsh. !! Since I have just become 41 I make the assumption that I am about the oldest fossil on this site...I meant it tongue in cheek, as they say. But really, your exclamation of the word, "NOT!" in your last post is a bit of a give away...No?

                          Im sure ive heard and know of much older people then you who say 'Not' or any other slang which is generally thought of for a younger generation.
                          Im not giving away my age because that could be used against me, let me just say that i think youd be surprized.
                          And i dont think you are the oldest person on this site at all, the designers were surely older, and im sure i know some 60 + people that visit it.

                          Im not harsh. I think you just assume that and assume what i said to be in a harsh manner. And you arent a fossil either, you shouldnt put yourself down like that, even if it wasnt serious.

                          As for the situation which I refer to, of course I do not know yours specifically. What I meant is that people all the time are having to deal with disturbances and traumas and what have you that threaten to take away their hope and feelings for themselves and for others. The language of your speech leads one to believe that you are in pain or conflict, and this is what I refer to. Of course you will deny it, but it is rather transparent, even with a veil of deceit.

                          Hahaha, Interesting. Very good, very good indeed.
                          I am saying nothing .
                          Of course people have to deal with things. Who says they have to enjoy it or accept it, or go quietly about it.


                          You may well say that I do not know what I am talking about. You may say anything at all I expect.





                          • #14
                            Hey Addison and Mantigore: (my two preferred ones)

                            Mantigore knows how to ignite the Islamist engine, and Addition knows how to drive it, and hiha..I am the happy passenger in the back...

                            NOW age thing: Mantigore, do you really believe that Addison is the kind that would discriminate against any one or any thing? I personally doubt it. Definately not on age, since she is pretty wise in my opinion, and really can fly way above these considerations.

                            There are 2 ages though: One of one's body (biological), and the other Intellect/ideological (ideas).

                            The body indeed changes over time, but ideas if not chewed over and over, they pretty much remain the same as ACQUIRED since we do acquire these things. For example: Islamist Terrorism theme, is baby born in the United States. Ages old in ALgeria. These practices have been utilized against ALgerians(civilians) for 40 years, if not more... I mention that since we are on - The entire Algeria as a country since 40 years now, has been brought up by the use of the Jihad thing by ALgerian Intellectuals way in the 40s.
                            It is the source of conflict now adays, in that Pro-republicans fight Pro-Islamists, and the post-war persons caught in between - 10% of population(in two ideologies) both using vilence control cicilian majority, and the world media and governments entertain them and give them voice.
                            You will never hear any thing about a peaceful grass root of 17 million people that came out of the home to the neighborhood, to the area, to the region up to becoming a national movement, do you?

                            Anyway, I think that I got lost in the politics thing again, please accept my apologies. I think that we should open a thread about CRAB, and Such, for us only ! A place for Seduction not conflict.




                            • #15
                              Dear mantigore,

                              Yes, I suppose knowing someone's age could be used as a weapon against them..But I do not know how it would make much difference in the cyber world. You could always lie,
                              I guess, if it would make you feel better...! But I did not reveal mine just to try to get others to do the same. I respect your desire not to reveal this information about yourself, as to do so would clearly make you feel uncomfortable.

                              Hmmm. Yes perhaps I was incorrect in my assessment of your tone...

                              OK, it is as you wrote: "...people have to deal with things." However, with regard to the comment, " Who says they have to enjoy it, or accept it, or go quietly about it, " I do not reckon that ANYone says this! If we experience misfortune, certainly it is not for our pleasure, but it may very well be for our good. That which is good and is necessary for our growth may not always be that which pleases us. Additionally, I have known people to go "about it" quietly, but they are a rare breed. Most people, I'll wager need to be quite vocal about it. It seems to help somehow, though I do not know why. I try
                              to be one of those stiff-upper-lip types, but it never gets me far. My usual pattern would be, umm...let's see...Cry, rant, cry, over-react, imagine worst case scenerios, hate my life, get angry with God, curse my life, cry, get a headache, get a nosebleed, take a pill, cry, hate everyone ELSE'S life, curse, cry, have a lie down, wipe my nose, beg God's forgiveness, stop crying, wait until headache subsides, then resume day. ( Lather, rinse, repeat,...) After an unspecified time ( depending on the event and degree of trauma ) I get on with my life.

                              OK, if you did not know I was female before this, you certainly would NOW...

                              Things will not always be as they are for you today ( as they were to you yesterday, or as they will seem to you tomorrow... ) I believe it.

                              With my respects,


                              " We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. " Oscar Wilde


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