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  • #16
    Two fools come to a thread about the Palestine question. Fool number one, on a mission to continue his useless harassment, proposes, in effect, "There is no Palestine and no Palestinians". His lapdog, fool number two, barks delightedly and nods his little head.

    Fool number one uses an argument frequently put forth by Zionists and their supporters to try to decry the rights of Palestinians, fool number two is impressed. Then fool number one does a complete about face and attacks Zionism and fool number two wets himself with happiness.

    Typically ignorant - and schizophrenic. "There is no Palestine question because I say there is no such thing as Palestine" says the majnoon adrift from reality, seconded by his little poodle.

    Meanwhile, back in the real world where there is most definitely a Palestine, Palestinians, and a Palestinian question that continues to demand the attention of the (thinking) person with an interest in current affairs, little change has been reported following the meaningless contribution of our two idiots.


    • #17
      Re: Re: Khiyal

      Originally posted by Indigo
      No thanks is forth-coming. I know very well that I have a "brain". Too bad I cannot say the same of you. We may as well begin your education here:
      The Romans crushed the second Jewish revolt against Rome around 135 A.D., under Bar Kochba. That is when Emperor Hadrian applied the term Palestine to the Land of Israel. Hadrian, as other dictators do, realized the propaganda power of terms and symbols. After smashing the rebels, he replaced the shrines of the Jewish Temple and the Sepulchre of "Christ" in Jerusalem with temples to pagan deities. Then he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitalina, and changed the name of Israel and Judea to Palestine. Hadrian's selection of the name, Palestine, was done with forethought. He selected the name because it was that of the ancient enemies of Israel, the Philistines, Latinized it to Palestine, and applied it to the Land of Israel. His intent was to erase the name Israel from all memory. Thus, it is seen that the term Palestine, as applied to the Land of Israel, was coined by a very knowledgeable enemy of the Bible and the Jewish people, Emperor Hadrian.
      Let me repeat myself. There is no Palestine, and no Palestinian peoples. Why I even teach History, in my spare time !

      Palestine was known as Palestine (Palaistine Syria (philistine Syria) by the Greeks almost 5 centuries before Hadrian’s journey to the middle east, All he did in fact is what Romans do with names of places and divinities in the empire, they rename them by adding a Latin Flavour to the name, so Adrian called Palaistine Syria “ paleastina Syria”, and If you don’t believe me check references for “Herodotus Palestine” I am sure there are hundreds of links to point you to the right direction.
      Next time make sure you check your information source ….. look for a reliable source … like in this instance “the Greek historian Herodotus”.


      • #18
        WASHINGTON (AFP) - Former US president Jimmy Carter cautioned the United States and Israel against punishing the Palestinian people for electing a government led by Hamas.

        "During this time of fluidity in the formation of the new government, it is important that Israel and the United States play positive roles," Carter wrote in a Washington Post opinion piece.

        "Any tacit or formal collusion between the two powers to disrupt the process by punishing the Palestinian people could be counterproductive and have devastating consequences," Carter warned.

        "Unfortunately, these steps are already under way and are well known throughout the Palestinian territories and the world," added Carter, who observed last month's election.

        "Israel moved yesterday to withhold funds (about 50 million dollars per month) that the Palestinians earn from customs and tax revenue. Perhaps a greater aggravation by the Israelis is their decision to hinder movement of elected Hamas Palestinian Legislative Council members through any of more than a hundred Israeli checkpoints around and throughout the Palestinian territories," Carter wrote.

        "This common commitment to eviscerate the government of elected Hamas officials by punishing private citizens may accomplish this narrow purpose, but the likely results will be to alienate the already oppressed and innocent Palestinians, to incite violence, and to increase the domestic influence and international esteem of Hamas. It will certainly not be an inducement to Hamas or other militants to moderate their policies," said Carter.

        "If Israel is willing to include the Palestinians in the process, (Mahmud) Abbas can still play this unique negotiating role as the unchallenged leader of the PLO (not the government that includes Hamas)," Carter added.

        For Carter, "it would not violate any political principles to at least give the Palestinians their own money; let humanitarian assistance continue through UN and private agencies; encourage Russia, Egypt and other nations to exert maximum influence on Hamas to moderate its negative policies; and support President Abbas in his efforts to ease tension, avoid violence and explore steps toward a lasting peace."

        Don't punish the Palestinians: Carter


        • #19
          It is a lie that to reject Zionism as it is practised today is to be the inheritor of Hitler's racism

          The chief rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sacks, is right. His reaction to the Anglican synod's call for sanctions against Israel is understandable. Hatred of Judaism - now commonly called anti-semitism - is a virus that has infected Christendom for two millennia. It continues to stalk the world despite its most virulent outbreak in Nazi Germany. It should not be left untreated. For too many it remains the unlearned lesson of the Holocaust. It should haunt decent Christians for generations to come.

          The German pope knows that particularly well and is on the battle lines against it. On this issue, nothing divides him from the Archbishop of Canterbury and most other church leaders. If, as some now think, today's Jews are the Muslims - hatred transferred - that simply means there is a battle to maintain our common humanity on more than one front. All collective hatreds poison the body politic.

          I say this as the child of a German Jewish-born father who escaped in time. His mother did not. I say it as a half-Jewish German child chased around a British playground in the second world war and taunted with "he's not just a German, he's a Jew". A double insult. But I say this too as a Christian priest who shares the historic guilt of all the churches. All Christians share a bloody inheritance.

          If I feel all that in my guts and know it in my head, I cannot stand by and watch the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - one of the world's most dangerous outbreaks of collective hatred - as a dispassionate onlooker. I cannot listen calmly when an Iranian president talks of wiping out Israel. Jewish fears go deep. They are not irrational. But I cannot listen calmly either when a great many citizens of Israel think and speak of Palestinians in the way a great many Germans thought and spoke about Jews when I was one of them and had to flee.

          If the Christian in me has good reason to be ashamed, so now does the Jew in me. I passionately believe that Israel has the right, and its people have the right, to live in peace and in secure borders. But I know too that modern Israel was born in terror and made possible in its present Zionist form by killing and a measure of ethnic cleansing. That is history. Tell me of a nation with an innocent history. But the Zionism at the heart of Israeli politics is about the present and the future. It makes me fear for the soul of Israel today and the survival of its children tomorrow.

          The Israel characterised by the words of Golda Meir that "there was no such thing as Palestinians ... they did not exist" is an Israel that is inevitably surrounded by enemies and that can only survive militarily and economically as a client state of the world's only superpower, for now. Nor can its nuclear monopoly in the Middle East last for ever. Peace cannot be made by building a wall on Palestinian land that makes the life of the miserably conquered more miserable still. A Palestinian bantustan will be a source of unrest and violence for ever......


          • #20
            Israel refused to hand over the tax revenues owed to the palestinian people , America says NO aid , Europe says the same no Financial help (palestine has no economy remember ?) now that B... Condoleeza rice is visiting the Middle East hoping to put pressure on the obedient Puppets to stop helping the palestinian and even threantened Iran for giving any money to the Palestinians . woaw ? Can you believe a more disgusting Secretary of state ? the Nazis would have been proud to have her among them.

            basically punish and starve a community for exercising their democratic right and vote for those they trusted more (rather thatn the corrupt Fatah ) what kind of democracy did Dubya has in mind i wonder ???

            I wonder whether the puppets in the Arab world will give in to the orders .
            Mr KHameni said he supports the idea of a trust fund among all muslims to help the palestinian stand on their feet and feed their people . Chapeau ! a Non Arab comes up with a statement like that . and Jimmy Carter says he disagrees with starving people, it could be counter productive and cause more blood shed (ghettos? warsaw ?)

            [60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

            [60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors


            • #21
              IT IS EVIDENTLY difficult to scrub off the sticker that is glued onto the front window. That's why when a new car from Germany or South Korea or the United States rolls onto the packed streets of Gaza or Ramallah, it generally has the big label with thick, red Hebrew letters forming the word "Checked" stuck on its windshield for several months.

              The label is a mark of the special customs and security checks conducted at the Israeli seaports of Ashdod or Haifa, which serve as the main entrances for most of the foreign goods bound for the West Bank and Gaza. Palestinians import all sorts of products: water pumps from Sweden, bulldozers and boxes of corn flakes from the United States, plastic toys from China, washing machines from France and cheese from Denmark — and virtually all of them reach their destinations only after they've been through Israeli port authorities and Israeli security checks.

              At the ports, Palestinian importers are required to pay the Israeli authorities the value-added tax of 17%, as well as whatever custom taxes are due on goods that come in on their way to the West Bank or Gaza. These transactions (along with direct Palestinian transactions with Israeli firms and merchants) last year yielded revenues of $711 million.

              But whose revenues are they?

              To judge by the actions of the Israeli Cabinet on Sunday, the money belongs to Israel. The Cabinet announced that it was going to withhold Palestinian tax and customs revenues, at least for the moment, as a response to Hamas' electoral victory. Until the money is released — if it is released — the Israeli treasury will earn the interest.

              But it's not supposed to work this way. According to the Oslo accords (and by any standards of common sense and basic justice), the revenues should serve the people who ultimately buy the goods. These tax receipts are not donations of goodwill from Israel; they are not charity. This is not like, say, Dutch foreign aid money, which is given freely by the Dutch people and can be withheld if the Dutch choose to stop giving it. These are tax revenues that are due to the people in the territories where the goods are headed, and the Israelis have no right to hold them up.....

              [/b]Palestinians are being robbed by Israel[/b]


              • #22
                ALGIERS, Algeria (AP) - Arab League foreign ministers have failed to agree on aid for the Palestinians as they come under rule of the militant Hamas, amid a dispute over commitments from each member state.

                Only three members of the league have contributed aid for the Palestinians, Algerian officials said after a meeting in Algiers that ran into late Monday night.

                The Arab League's Secretary General Amr Moussa and Algerian State Minister Abdelaziz Belkhadem appealed at the meeting for all other member states to contribute funds.

                Speaking at a news conference after the meeting, they did not indicate which countries had not paid or give details of the dispute....

                Arab League fails to agree on Palestinian funding under Hamas

                They may not have indicated which three countries have been aiding the Palestinians but other sources do:

                ...Only three Arab states have provided funding to the PA in the past two months. Saudi Arabia donated 25 million dollars, Algeria gave 42 million dollars and Egypt one million dollars....


                • #23
                  We are in 1992 once again. Will the victorious Islamist political movement Hamas be allowed to govern in Palestine, as the triumphant Islamic Salvation Front was not allowed to do after it won the first round of Algerian elections in 1992? The denial of incumbency to the Algerian Islamists resulted in a bitter and bloody civil war that cost thousands of lives over a decade. It set back the democratization trend in the Middle East by at least a decade, at a crucial moment after the Cold War when democracy was spreading throughout the world...

                  A historical verge, or back to Algeria in 1992?


                  • #24
                    Iran offers to fund Palestinian Authority


                    • #25
                      The European Union is considering direct payments to the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas, as a way of supporting the moderate Palestinian leader while trying to maintain financial pressure on Hamas, the anti-Israel political party that swept to power in elections last month...

                      EU ponders bypassing Hamas on aid

                      The U.N. is urging donors to provide funds to keep the Palestinian Authority running after Israel starts withholding tax revenues next week, rebuffing the Jewish state's appeal for a suspension of aid, diplomats said on Friday....

                      UN lobbies for Palestinian aid despite Israel

                      Palestinian prime minister designate Ismail Haniya would be a legitimate assassination target in the event of an attack by Hamas, a senior member of Israel's ruling party said in an interview Friday...

                      Ex-Shin Beth chief: No immunity for Haniya


                      • #26
                        RAMALLAH, West Bank - The United States will continue sending humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people even after a Hamas government is formed, a senior U.S. envoy told Palestinian leaders during the first high-level meeting between the two sides since Hamas' election victory.

                        State Department envoy David Welch said the U.S. continues "to be devoted to the humanitarian needs of the Palestinian people and we shall remain so."

                        Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said Welch told Palestinian officials that U.S. aid would be redirected, but Welch did not specify how.

                        Erekat noted that hundreds of millions of dollars in U.S. aid flow directly into infrastructure projects every year, and not into Palestinian government coffers.

                        "We urged the U.S. administration to continue helping the Palestinian people, as it did in previous years," Erekat said after the meeting. "They have never transferred a single dollar to the Palestinian Authority directly. The money was being transferred via non-governmental organizations...."

                        U.S. to continue sending Palestinians aid

                        Designated Palestinian prime minister Ismail Haniyeh, speaking about Israel, said: "We don't want to throw them into the sea." Haniyeh was interviewed for the Washington Post and Newsweek Magazine.

                        "We are not looking for a war and not initiating war. We are not interested in a circle of violence. If Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, then we'll establish peace in stages."

                        Ismail Haniyeh: If Israel withdraws to '67 borders, we'll establish peace in stages

                        For those who haven't noticed, Israel opposes a two-state solution. It has been doing everything in its power to prevent a Palestinian state from emerging and will continue to do so as long as it can count on the complicity of its powerful friends and on abundant popular indifference. Under such circumstances, it is incumbent upon ourselves to ask why Hamas has therefore been ordered - by Israel and its same powerful friends --to accept "the two-state solution" especially when, unlike Israel, it has stated clearly and repeatedly that it would accept a Palestinian state on the lands occupied by Israel in the 1967 war, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. Indeed, all of its key spokespeople have said this:Zahar, Haniye, Meshal, and Yassin and Rantisi before they were murdered....

                        For those who haven't noticed: Watching the dissolution of Palestine

                        In response to criticism from Jewish leaders over the General Synod’s vote to withdraw investment from companies profiting from the occupation of Palestine, the Archbishop of Canterbury has described the move as “ethically” motivated....

                        Archbishop defends decision to disinvest

                        [Edited by Al-khiyal on 26th February 2006 at 15:14]


                        • #27
                          The IDF commander of the Gaza division, Brigadier General Aviv Kochavi, has cancelled plans to study in the U.K. after warnings from the military that he could be arrested for war crimes.

                          IDF officer cancels UK study leave for fear of arrest

                          The Permanent Observer Mission of Palestine to the United Nations, Reyad Mansour confirmed that the latest Israeli aggressions included the killing extra-judicially five residents in Nablus and two others in the Gaza Strip were violations against the principles of international law.

                          Mansour acquainted during his meeting with the United Nations Under-Secretary-General and Special Adviser on Africa Ibrahim Gambari with the latest developments in the Palestinian territories and the dangers of the Israeli escalation in the area.

                          Mansour called on the UN Secretary General, Kofi Anan to intervene in order to stop the Israeli aggressions against the Palestinian people....

                          Mansour: Israel's aggression violates international law

                          Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said on Sunday evening that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was "irrelevant" because of Hamas' victory in last month's Palestinian legislative elections and the militant group's subsequent takeover of the Palestinian parliament...

                          Abbas is "irrelevant": Israeli FM


                          • #28
                            Hamas lists Israel recognition terms

                            Incoming Palestinian premier says Hamas wants long-term truce

                            Hamas spokesman in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC)Salah al-Bardaweil denied that Haneya had told the Post that Hamas could recognize Israel under a future deal on condition that Israel withdraws to the pre-1967 borders.

                            Haneya didn't say that Hamas would recognize the state of Israel as it was reported by the Post, the spokesman said, adding that "we have the recorded interview and it doesn't include any of the statements published by the daily."

                            Hamas accuses Washington Post of misinterpreting statements made by Ismael Haneya

                            Palestinian cash crisis bites as EU pays utility bills

                            Israeli anger at Europe's aid for Palestinians

                            [Edited by Al-khiyal on 28th February 2006 at 16:08]


                            • #29
                              ... This morning I had meetings with two really nice, really smart Israeli guys whom I've known for many years. Each meeting was set up in a cafe in a different shopping mall in a different part of North Tel Aviv. Driving out to these meetings-- especiaslly the first one--was unbelievable! Mile upon mile upon mile of enormous, extremely lavish-looking apartment buildings and cranes hanging over the horizon at every aspect building yet more of the same.

                              Who on earth can afford to live in all these super-luxury apartments? What companies have the capital to invest in such mammoth-sized projects? This country has become so unbelievably wealthy since Yasser Arafat's conclusion of the Oslo Accords with them in 1993 opened the door to much wider trade and investment relations with Europe and (especially) the "tiger" economies of East Asia! But for the poor old Palestinians themselves, meanwhile, Oslo brought almost nothing but further land-exprorpriations, further represssion, the deliberate fragmentation by the Israelis of much of the West Bank, continued economic dependence, insult, injury, and and penury...

                              ....Before Oslo-- even at the height of the first intifada-- Palestinians could come and go between East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank fairly easily, could come and go between Jerusalem and Gaza fairly easily. Actually, during nearly the whole of that first intifada, 1987-93, East Jerusalem was the bubbling hub of the intifada's entire nationwide organizing effort.

                              But then immediately after Oslo the Israeli campaign to strangle Jerusalem off from the rest of the West Bank really got underway in earnest. I was there in 1995 and saw the process near its beginning. Poor old Faisal Husseini, the late leader of the Jerusalem Palestinian community, an extremely decent and hard-pressed man, was tearing his hair out in frustration... Not only because of what he saw the Israelis doing every day there befoire his eyes but also because of his sense that Yasser Arafat really didn't have a clue about what was happening to Palestinian Jerusalem. (One of the things that was happeninbg was that much of the land owned by Jerusalem's historic Husseini family, of which Faisal was the heir, had been designated by the Israelis as a "nature zone" area, so first of all Faisal's family was forbidden to build anything on it, and then the Israeli government expropriated it completely. Just a few years after that, guess what, the "nature zone" designation was lifted and an entire settlement for ultra-Orthdox Jews was built on it. So much for protecting the environment, eh?)

                              Tel Aviv etc


                              • #30
                                It is not the Palestinians who should be welcoming the European Union's decision to hastily donate another $142 million before the Hamas government is formed. It is Israel that ought to be pleased that the Western states will continue compensating the Palestinians for the economic decline that is a product of the Israeli occupation.

                                For it is not natural disasters that have transformed the Palestinians into a nation that lives on handouts from the world; it is Israel's accelerating colonialist process. One facet of this is the continued takeover of Palestinian lands (whether "private" or public lands, it is the same thing), expansion of construction only for Jews, and de facto annexation by Israel of extensive tracts of Palestinian territory, while simultaneously breaking up the West Bank into enclaves and enclosures for Palestinians.

                                Another facet of this colonization is a regime of excessive restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of Palestinians between their enclosures and enclaves within the West Bank, and between the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

                                The pledged European donation, part of which is intended to pay salaries in the Palestinian public sector, shows that Europe is having a difficult time preventing Israel from robbing in broad daylight Palestinian tax and customs monies, amounting to between $50 million and $65 million a month. It also shows that Europe assesses that the U.S. will not pressure Israel to return the stolen funds - in contrast with the pressure it exerted at the beginning of the intifada, when Israel also blocked the transfer of tax monies.

                                Indeed, the funds are levied at Israeli ports and within Israel, but on Palestinian private sector transactions. This is Palestinian money, which by every standard of proper administration must not accrue interest in the Israeli treasury when it should be transferred to the Palestinian health or education ministries.

                                The money constitutes about two-thirds of the income that derives from Palestinian economic activity. One-third - about $35 million a month - are taxes directly levied on economic activity within the West Bank and Gaza Strip. These sums could be much higher, and could help to balance out the donations and handouts to the Palestinian ongoing budget, were it not for the Israeli measures taken against the Palestinian economy and its potential for development....

                                A nation of beggars


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